Two Way Traffic with Darren Coleman

Arlene 0:01
The opinions expressed on two way traffic are those of Darren Coleman and are for general information purposes only. It does not constitute any legally binding engagement between the podcasters and anyone else. Always check with your advisors to obtain your own tax or investment advice you Darren, welcome to two way traffic with Darren Coleman of Portage cross border Wealth Management. In this series, Darren aims to guide you through the complexities, complications, implications, and most importantly, the advantages of having money and family on both sides of the border. In this episode, it's a belated Happy New Year for 2025 with tax lawyer Trevor Perry and tax expert Kim moody joining Darren, you're advised to fasten your seat belts.

Darren Coleman 0:54
Hi and welcome back to another edition of two way traffic the podcast and listeners, you're in for a heck of a conversation today. It's New Year's Eve 2024 and I'm joined today by two of our favorite guests from the past year, Kim moody, of Moody's private client in Calgary, Alberta, and Trevor Perry, who is fighting Leviathan consistently in Ancaster, Ontario, two of Canada's most prolific tax fighters. I've had conversations individually with you this past year. I know you guys are friends, so I've decided to do something that might be very damaging to my career, of having both of you on together to discuss a little bit of where are we right now in terms of tax policy, what should Canadian investors be thinking about also, as we have a new government going into the United States, and a little warning to my compliance and communications people, you're probably gonna be drinking straight out of the bottle before this thing is over. So listeners are in for I know these gentlemen Well, I think there will probably be some donations to the Liberal Party of Canada happening at the end of this thing. So we're not we'll see. So gentlemen, welcome to the last episode of 2024 thanks for taking some time.

Trevor Perry 2:04
Thank you very much. And Kim, you're dressed wonderfully, as always. Just for your viewership, we buy from the same tailor we do. We do what's what I'm trying to dress like 1910 but that's okay,

Kim Moody 2:18
what's what's your liner do today?

Trevor Perry 2:20
I just have some paisley going on.

Darren Coleman 2:23
I just, I knew I just have basic blue I knew I was not getting into this sartorial combat with you two gentlemen. But you've

Trevor Perry 2:30
got the you've got the US accountant, walk through the airport look. That's fair you do. That's fair. The button down Brooks Brothers shirt. You got the blue blazer, if you have the tan chinos, you're done. There you go. You got to get some glasses. They

Darren Coleman 2:43
also have jeans on. Although I did, I will admit I do have a blue vest, which is very Manhattan. There you go. I do have one.

Kim Moody 2:50
Hey, I gotta ask some some questions here. Sure, Darren, before we get going. So just for compliance, are we like, what? What's the language restrictions? Are we? Are we free to go? So,

Darren Coleman 3:02
so, so, well, you know, we are grown up. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, like, if you're like, the children should probably not be listening to a tax conversation in any way. So, because tax is basically a four letter word in Canada, so if they're listening, I mean, I'm asking

Kim Moody 3:14
for Trevor, right? Because I know Trevor's I'm, I'm always very, very classy.

Darren Coleman 3:20
So so I, I think I'll just let you gentlemen, do whatever you want. You are grown ups. And this is, I guess we'll put a parental lyric warning on the front of this one potential, although I

Trevor Perry 3:28
started in imparting the importance of fighting taxation to my three daughters, I've already told them that sharing smacks of socialism. So

Darren Coleman 3:38
sharing sucks. Give, give two three year olds a toy, and then let me know how that goes. So I think that's an interesting point. But gentlemen, why don't we begin with a little bit of kind of where are we right now? We just had the fall economic statement that was not delivered by your finance minister, Kim. I happened to be out in Calgary. We were having a chat in person before the statement, and you asked me directly, hey, what do you think the deficit is going to come at, come in at, do you think it'll be more or less? And I said, it'll be over 60 billion. And you said, no way. Well, yeah, way. That's exactly what happened. It was recorded as, let's say, 62 billion, although I feel like it's when a contractor gives you a quote, you better budget for some more cash, because it's probably going to be more. But they came in at more than 50% higher than the fiscal guardrail that they set for themselves. So this is an astonishing amount of capital that they've they've spent, and not even remotely close to where they said they were going to be. Even 40 billion was a big number. So now that it's 60 and there's really no one to stand there and take accountability for it, so we had the finance minister resign just hours before she delivered that statement. So that was astonishing. So I'd want to focus on where does that leave taxpayers right now? Because there are a number of elements or items this year that we kind of, do we abide by? The Do we not? And I'll focus on the capital gains inclusion rate change as probably the most significant one. That we had the change announced for June, many people may have taken action, and where are we now? Is that going to go through? Not going to go through? What should investors be doing? What should taxpayers be doing with the state of change that we have in Ottawa?

Kim Moody 5:14
I can start off on that one, and Trevor can jump in anytime he wants here, but you're right. It was good to see in Calgary, and I had in my head that the budget deficit would be somewhere in the 50, 55 billion. I think that's the number I said to you. And when you said 60, I just come on. But then, as I read the public accounts that were released the next day, I started releasing a what a pile of garbage, especially the management reports, which is, I forgot how biased those things are, but you can just see some of the accounting games that are played. And me as an accountant, you know, I understand that stuff generally. Well, I'm more of a lawyer wannabe, as Trevor knows, given the fact that when you practice tax, you're practicing law without a license if you're an accountant like I am. But having said all that, you know, to your question on capital gains, where are we today? Well, this is one of the, I wouldn't say the only times in my career, but one of the, certainly most unusual times in my career where we've had some proposed tax legislation that looks like it's not going to get through, you know. And Trevor and I have been around a long time, and we've seen lots of tax legislation not get through, but a lot of it's very technical, and it's ultimately reintroduced by a government because of its non controversial nature. And Trevor, I don't know if you remember the, you know, the non resident trust stuff, you know, that was originated in 1999 and it took, what the better part of 14 years to get, you know, to finally get in place. Now, though, you know, the average Canadian has no clue about that, because it's non controversial and but this one is broad based. It's high profile, it's controversial, it's political. I can't think of another, you know, tax piece of proposed legislation that looks like, if I was a betting man, I'd say probably about 98% certainty that it's not going to go through. And I've written about that in my Financial Post articles. So Trevor, do you know of any other, you know, broad based piece of legislation. I can't think of any no that

Trevor Perry 7:24
didn't go through. I mean, there's a lot tumult when income trusts are attacked and all that kind of stuff. But to see, you know, the panic that was engineered this year to create some kind of revenue event because of forced selling, and it's going to die because the Little Prince is going to prorogue parliament. I mean, no, I've never seen anything like this before, and it's just part and parcel of and I think you've written about this extensively, Kim, the worst the history in the history of this country, the worst tax policy from day one going on. And it gets worse and worse as they as they dig themselves in further.

Darren Coleman 8:04
And we'll go over some of the greatest hits on that vein a little bit later in the podcast. So Kim, you wrote an article about this in the Financial Post. Actually, you kind of wrote two, one just before Christopher and resigned, and then one right after that. And it's really a quandary for investors and taxpayers, because the general rule has been, if I'm correct, that even though the legislation may not be enacted, one has to act as if it was going to pass, right? But as you guys have said, it's very likely this will not pass. But that's a political conversation from an administrative and a tax compliance should people, as they go into the tax year, should they be assuming that the new capital gains inclusion rate applies and act accordingly. Or should they act as if no, a betting man says it's not going to happen, so I should just keep the old rates. What should you do? Yeah,

Kim Moody 8:50
I'll pause on that for two seconds, just because i Something popped into my head, just to correct myself, I think there was a broad based proposal in 2000 I want to say six Trevor where I think the conservatives have proposed some sort of middle tax bracket reduction, if I recall correctly, and then that died and they never reintroduced it. So that's the only one I can think of. But anyhow, to your question, you know, the CRA has a long standing policy of encouraging taxpayers to act on proposed legislation. And I think there's a good reason for that, and I support them on that, actually, because, like we've said right off the bat, you know, I would say 98% if not higher, of tax legislation, proposed tax legislation gets passed even with retroactive applicability, which is very, very common in tax law. And given that I'm not a lawyer, I can't comment on other areas of law, but I think it is applicable as well. And so that policy is, like I said, been decades and pretty non controversial. This one, I think, is a little bit controversial. Were some recent statements that are attributed to the CRA that saying that, hey, listen, they're going to continue to administer the capital gains stuff on the basis that it's law, even if an election is called. And that's the part that kind of pissed me off, and I wrote about it because, listen, you have this broad based policy. I get it, but it's administrative law. In other words, it's not you're administering proposed law. These are, this is not effective law, effective law. And so you need, by definition, to be flexible with this approach. And in this case, read the room for Frick sakes, like this stuff is not going to get passed if, if an election is called, and therefore you're going to continue to administer it. Well, I can tell you, in my client base, I'm giving the exact opposite, because advice, which is, hey, listen, I think 98% chance this thing is not going through. So if you want to amend your tax returns for the two thirds inclusion rate, you go right ahead, but you're going to do it without my blessing, because I think it's wrong, and you're going to fight to get that money back. It'll take a long time. So that that's my approach. Well, that's a good

Darren Coleman 11:16
point, because if someone does follow the process and whatever the tax forms are going to say and pays that higher inclusion rate amount, and then they do change the rules back to the original rules. How easy is it to fight to get your money back? Is that pretty standard? Like, no, don't worry, they'll refund it within five business days, or is it a big argument?

Kim Moody 11:34
No, it's not usually a fight, per se, although there's always exceptions to that, but it's a it's a matter of timing. You know when you amend your tax return? Number one, Have you filed your tax return? If so, then do you have the ability to amend it? Which, in most cases, you do, and then how long is it going to take for them to process it? Those are usually the pillars, and it's that last one that takes a long time,

Trevor Perry 11:58
and it's part and parcel of a tax administration system that needs a complete overhaul. Yeah, I mean, Canadians the time. I mean, I pounded the table on changing the evidential burden to make the government have to prove its case, given that they know everything that you're doing already at that time, come a basic respect for the taxpayer, which is something that we don't have. I mean, I remember telling our last prime minister who was fantastic that there were more auditors in Canada than Canada has infantry. That's, that's nature of the beast right now.

Kim Moody 12:30
And you know, that's, that's, that's increased by a lot, as you know, Trevor, right? I think when what was the numbers off I've written about this, I think it's 29,000 CRA employees. When Little Prince using your language took office today, it's, I think it's almost 60,000 if I'm not mistaken, not quite. I think it's in my right on mid 50s, something like that.

Trevor Perry 12:52
We have, and we have about 12,000 infantry, of which we cannot deploy them all at the same time. I don't think

Darren Coleman 12:57
we can arm them properly, by the way.

Kim Moody 12:59
No, we don't. That's just nonsensical, in my view. Well, maybe

Darren Coleman 13:03
they could buy their own guns. Oh no, they cannot allow to do that either. So never mind. Good thing, we're pretty proficient with hockey sticks, so at least we've got that going for us.

Kim Moody 13:13
Can I digress, for sure. Did you who read the ridiculous piece put out by Mark Carney in The Globe and Mail yesterday. Trevor, do you see that or no, I don't. I

Darren Coleman 13:24
bet, Mr. Carney, and I don't really want to read more, but go ahead,

Kim Moody 13:27
unbelievable. Like, how he gets air time is just, I mean, yes, he's a smart guy. He's got lots of credential blah, blah, blah, but he put out a what Canada needs for 2025 it's got to be one of the most ridiculous pieces I've ever read. And frankly, you know, I think I'm a stupider person for reading it like my IQ levels dropped. Hey, he

Darren Coleman 13:49
could be the next finance minister or prime minister. I'm like, they're trying to lure mr. Carney into federal politics.

Trevor Perry 13:55
I think, I think he's Michael ignati of 2.0 I think so too. I think you might be right if you want to talk about the future of the Liberal Party, I don't think it's Mark Carney. If there is, you know, I'm, I'm certainly an advocate for a serious forensic audit of most of the Liberal Party, the PMO and and several members of caucus. But if there's anything left over after the next election, I think the leaders coming from from the outside, it's not, it's not going to be a member of caucus, and it's not going to be the poster child for globalized banking. I think

Darren Coleman 14:28
you're right. Well, hey, let's before we get into who we think might be in, let's go back over that greatest hits of, you know, fantastic and outstanding tax policy that we've seen over the last year, we've had a few. Kim, you actually wrote it with that in the Financial Post today. A little bit. We've had the tax flipping tax. We've had the changes to AMT. We've had the unused, underused housing tax. We just had the move the date of which you can make a charitable contribution, because we had the postal strike. What so in do you want to tackle any of those individually? Any favorites of. A brilliant tax policy that you've seen there.

Kim Moody 15:03
Well, real quick. I mean, as you know, when Trevor knows I'm certainly no fan of the capital gains one, which I had ranked number one in the article as the worst policy. But number two is something that you know, even when I lecture to like I lectured to 400 accountants here recently, and it's surprising to me that none of them, well, I wouldn't say none, but hardly any of them knew about number two, which is the prohibition of deductions on certain short term rental owners. So if you're happen to be an evil owner and operator of a Airbnb that operates in a jurisdiction that prohibits that, you're denied all your expense deductions because, of course, those people are materially contributing, you know, to Canada's housing challenges. First of all, that's bullshit. First of all, that's bullshit. But second of all, you know, a complete prohibition of deductions, like, Are you kidding me? So the example I, you know, have written about a lot over the last year is, let's pretend that Trevor is a cocaine dealer, you know. He's out selling snow, you know. And

Darren Coleman 16:11
he looks like the type, by the way. He looks right out of the videos. He looks stereotypical, yeah, and so, so here's the here's my collection.

Kim Moody 16:22
Oh, there you go. Holy Jesus. That's quite the that's quite the weapon, but letter opener. So he's Yes, so, but me, you know, I'm just a lowly Airbnb operator. So Trevor makes 10 grand selling snow. But he's got quite the, you know, he's got a bunch of people running around for him. He's got burner cell phones. He's got cost of his inventory, etc, etc. So he makes net 2000 bucks, and he comes to me and says, Hey, Kim, you know, I know I'm doing something illegal here, criminally. I'm selling drugs, but I don't want to be a criminal twice, you know? I want to, I want to make sure I file my tax returns because,

Darren Coleman 17:01
well, that's how they got off the phone, right? So we got to learn from that. Yeah,

Kim Moody 17:05
exactly. And so I don't want to be a tax evader. So can you file my tax returns for me? So goes ahead. I file the tax returns. Do you think I'm claiming his deductions? You know, his $8,000 of deductions? Sure, yeah. And there's nothing in the Income Tax Act that prohibits that. But now me, I go ahead and I file my tax returns from my evil Airbnb operation that I'm operating illegally in a jurisdiction because I need to pay some bills, and I have the same $8,000 of expenses. Nope, I can't deduct those, so I'm paying tax on 10 Now you tell me, you know, from a public policy perspective, what that says to the average Canadian, if they understood it, that that tells me that the drug dealer you know in this fictional world, Trevor, is better off and should be treated more better, from a tax perspective, than me, the lowly Airbnb. That's ridiculous policy. It's dangerous policy, and it's something that needs to go immediately. Because it's just, it really drives me crazy when I, when I continue to think about it, it's it's unbelievable. I don't have, you have any comments on that

Trevor Perry 18:17
charter, but for me, as a lawyer and as a as a political, political junkie, I think goes the root cause, and eventually this is going to have to be faced in this country, is that our 1982 constitutional exercise needs to be reopened, that that document, the charter, was foisted upon us, and there was no popular buy in. It's also, you mean not, it's basically a doormat with this government. But until we enshrine property rights in the Constitution, I believe, as a fundamental conservative that we do have property rights, we always have. The fact that we didn't write them down does not make a difference, but the courts won't enforce that, yet. We have to, and hopefully Mr. Polyev steps in and says, This is ridiculous. Canadians have an inherent, not natural right to private property and not to be deprived of without due process and with Fair, fair and equitable compensation. That has to happen, and that will permeate throughout tax there are the country is broken at the core, not just because we have the prince Dauphin and a corrupt PMO, we have a flawed system that has been exacerbated by economic and other issues. And just

Darren Coleman 19:28
to put some gravy on the fries, why don't we now pivot to talk about the changes that we might see coming from our cousins in the United States. They've got a new president coming in who's been quite prolific, and just

Trevor Perry 19:39
Darren, before you do, I was gonna throw my worst, oh yes, please. Policy, tax, tax policy is horrible. But in terms of tax practice, having done lots of work for professional athletes, CRA running at baseball players and, oh yes,

Darren Coleman 19:53
the Tavares situation, and we've had some baseball players roped in too, yeah. I mean, if

Trevor Perry 19:57
Tavares loses that, that. Uh, that case you're going to start seeing Canadian teams fold up and move again. It's just absolutely stupid. And again, it goes to the whole issue of, why are we taxing people into oblivion at $245,000

Darren Coleman 20:13
in the north? Yeah, we did. We did a podcast episode with Kevin dighting Gail and shalom he Levy, talking about, they were, they don't represent Mr. Tavares, so it was safe for them to comment on anything about that one. So listeners can go back and hear that podcast if you come familiar with that case. We have had a bit of movement on that. We've had some Toronto Blue Jays baseball players who had similar predicaments. They look like they've been resolved positively for the players. But those are not exactly the same situation as Mr. Tavares, so we'll have to see what unfolds here. And as a big sports fan yourself, I know that one's pretty close to your heart. Well,

Trevor Perry 20:47
as you know, the Stanley Cup will come back to Canada one day it's going down St Catherine Street, so leaf fans may once again put their

Darren Coleman 20:55
What did you have a joke about that? Maple Leaf fans have not seen the Stanley Cup in color.

Trevor Perry 21:00
Yeah, when I used to run across the country trying to make actuarial services exciting, I'd find a leaf fan, and they're everywhere and and I would say, yeah, in Montreal, we've seen the Stanley Cup in color. And then there's silence. Well,

Darren Coleman 21:14
we can, we can visit it at the hawk the Hockey Hall of Fame is in Toronto. That's about as close as Toronto gets to the Dern thing. So

Trevor Perry 21:20
is most of the Canadian economy because of Rene Levesque. We're going to get a statue at bay and Bay and King saying messy Renee, because that's the only reason Toronto is what it is.

Kim Moody 21:30
Oh, the one thing I'll dispute to Trevor is it'll be the flames before at the house.

Trevor Perry 21:37
I know it 1989 never happened. It's like Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower. So,

Darren Coleman 21:44
so now that we got into hockey, let me lure back our American listeners for a minute there. So let's pivot into what's happening with our American cousins. They are going to go into, I think, a very interesting 2025 they've got a new president coming in in a couple of, well, a little over a week, who's already been a little noisy around what he thinks of how to change the world a little bit. So the difference, I think, is going to be very significant between how the US is going to adopt tax policy, and it's a little concerning, I think, for many people that Canada doesn't, apparently seem to have, you know, a functioning government at the moment, in some ways. So what do you guys think that Mr. Trump might do just in his first year in terms of tax policy? What should investors maybe be getting ready for Trevor? Why don't you go first? You're a big Trump fan. I

Trevor Perry 22:32
think, I think you're going to see them. I mean, make the tax changes he brought in in his first term permanent. I think you're going to get that lower corporate tax rate, which is going to cause, you know, great tumult in this country and in other countries, but particularly Canada, where where we are, where we've been, you know, increasing attacks at almost every by every measure. So I think there's going to be pressure here to have some kind of sensible corporate tax rate, the estate tax change. There won't be any changes to estate taxation in the US for the foreseeable future. So there will be again, more reasons for, as Ross Perot called it, that great sucking sound of Canadian capital to capital, both real and human, to leave the country.

Darren Coleman 23:20
Let me. Let me, let me test that one for a second, because I know this comes up a fair bit, and have and I and sometimes people push back and say, well, just in theory, people can do it, but do are they actually doing it? So gentlemen, have you actually seen evidence in your own practices of Canadians saying, I'm done, I'm out of here, and they're actually making the steps they're making, the move to leave, to lower tax jurisdiction. Because I just want to test this. People say it's possible. But it's possible. About how many people are really doing it? Are you actually

Kim Moody 23:45
seeing it? Yeah, 1,000% and I've written about this a lot. I've spoken about it publicly. I've spoken at conference on this, you know, where the actually on one particular conference I spoke about this, and a lefty academic was my year was a, you know, pro capital gains changes, no. And, you know, of course, there's a lefty academic and and so I recited the statistics that I'll tell you right now, but his rebuttal was, I don't believe you, right? And that's, that's all they say, right? I don't believe you show me the statistics. Well, here's, here's the statistics coming out of my office in Calgary. And we're not a big office, right? We're, you know, we punch above our weight, but we're about 85 people. We act for high net worth, ultra high net worth, private companies and individuals. In the last in the first 23 years of my career, I've been practicing for roughly 31 years now, in the first roughly 23 years of my career, I did maybe a dozen departure tax files. You know, people leaving Canada, and what are the implications of leaving Canada? And as Trevor knows it, was you could drive trucks through the legislation before right? It was really easy to leave Canada without incurring. Departure tax. That all changed. I want to say late 90s, am I right? Trevor, something like that, and and they made it a lot more difficult. And so in the last nine years, coincidentally, when, you know, the little prince came to power and immediately increased, you know, introduced a new high personal tax rate that was a flurry of activity. And then, of course, fast forward to the attack on small businesses in 2017 that caused a whole bunch of angst. COVID caused a whole bunch of banks without a control spending. And, you know, where's our anchor? Blah, blah, blah. And then continued to tax. And then the capital gains stuff was just kind of over the top. So all to say, in the last, especially five years, the number of files that I've worked on in the, you know, departure tax. You want to take a guess, Darren, remember dozen in my first career, I was going

Darren Coleman 25:53
to say, well, you're over 100

Kim Moody 25:55
Yeah, okay, Trevor, 600 you are bang on. Well, it's over 600 it's over 600 now, to be fair, not all of those 600 have actually closed the deal. I would say probably a little over half have closed the deal. The others are just waiting in the wings. Now, you want to know the wealth, which I haven't tracked it accurately, but the wealth attached to those 300 files, it's more than $50 I'm just going to fix that. More

Darren Coleman 26:23
than $50 let's just say it's high billions. Yeah, that's gone. And if you is, and it's not going to come back, it's not going to come out, nope, not coming back, no, because once people have departed, they paid the exit tax. They're not coming back and and paying this all again.

Trevor Perry 26:37
We did our annual drive through the Midwest, because my wife's family is is from Wisconsin and Minnesota. And in addition to seeing probably 7000 Trump signs and two Harris signs, I can attest to you that that the American standard of living is demonstrably superior than the Canadian at the middle class and lower middle class level. It is tangible. It is real. All you need to do is go and see it, and as a father of young children, I toy, you know it. My family's been in Canada for 400 years. My French is brutal, but we've been here for a long time. So it pulls up my heart strings, but I am very much considering I'm probably going to rate the Florida Bar some point this year. Whether I go or not, I don't know, because I think Pierre can actually, you know, if Canadian, it's not just the leader, the Canadian, the Canadian electorate, the citizenry, has to wake up and say, You know what? It's our fault too. We put the sob in power.

Darren Coleman 27:34
People get the government they deserve, right? You get

Trevor Perry 27:37
it exactly. So there's a ton of work to do it, and this cradle to get grave government has got to end as I pound the table, Leviathan must be stopped. But, you know, there's weird, the dichotomy, the paradox between Canada and the United States right now is has never been more stark in my in my opinion

Kim Moody 27:57
that that's a nice segue to to to conclude on my statistics, yeah, any guesses where all that wealth is going? I'm

Darren Coleman 28:04
going to guess Texas and Florida, the two primary recipients.

Kim Moody 28:09
Well, I mean, you hit the United States, right? So I would say without a doubt, 95% go to the United States, which, you know, that tends to shock some champagne socialists. What? Why are

Darren Coleman 28:22
they going there? The political situation, guns and things, right? Yeah, they

Kim Moody 28:26
are. Healthcare superior. No, it's not well. I think, I think

Darren Coleman 28:29
COVID demonstrated to many people that it maybe isn't as great as we hope it is sometimes. So, yeah, it's an issue Canadian health. It's all going to the States. I mean, I

Trevor Perry 28:39
remember in second year undergraduate in convocation Hall, it was introduction to international relations, and Professor Janice Stein asked us, What is Canada and what are Canadians? And I said, then this is, this is the 80s. The Canadians are an apathetic lot who believe that the country is the sum total of its social programs. Was I wrong? No, Canada is broken, and people identify themselves, and the entire mantra from the Liberal Party is we've addicted you to government. Why would you ever want to vote for Mr. Polio? Because you have to give up your addiction. They're just handing crack out. It's ridiculous. The industry is inexorably broken. We have to go back to first fundamentals.

Darren Coleman 29:21
So let's play a game here, because we've had I think it's hilarious, by the way, the way Mr. Trump has been trolling Mr. Trudeau with the 51st comment, Darren, I just think it's gone. I love comedy. I will appreciate comedy, right? I'm a fan of comedy, so I think it's actually quite funny. But let's toy with this idea, because Diane Francis wrote an interesting piece that talked about, you know, Canada coming the 51st state. And obviously she balked at that, because politically, it just wouldn't happen. And the wealth of Canada is too gigantic to just say we're absorbed as a state. But she posited this idea of a more positive economic union between Canada and the US to kind of erase the border for. An economic perspective, right, to allow a greater free flow of capital, employment and everything else, just like the EU, right? You can live in Germany, work in France, and everything else. Now that would be devastating to my business and and Kim's and Trevor's, to some extent, because we help people with that maneuver of moving capital and people across the border. And that complexity is actually great for us in resolving it for people. But would that be something that you guys see as a potential reality in the next few years of a greater degree of union between Canada us, from an economic perspective, not politically, but to make that movement of capital and human capital back and forth across the border a little more

Kim Moody 30:39
seamless? I'll jump in without a doubt. I think that would be better. I mean, when you have what are we now the third largest trading partner in the US? I mean, for years, we were proudly number one, but I think we've I think we're now number 3am. I right on that? I'm not sure, but no, I think we're down. But in any event, I think you framed it nicely. I mean, like Trevor, you know, I have roots in Canada going back probably not 400 years, but a lot of years. And I'm a proud Canadian. I would never support being the 51st state like you. I'm a good I love comedy, and I do think this trolling is pissed a lot of people, I think it's kind of COVID, but I think it worked because it hit a nerve. It well, he's a lot brighter, and his people around him are a lot brighter than, you know, they give him credit for, especially in the mainstream media, so called mainstream media, so, but in terms of an economic union, tighter ties, you know, kind of a seamless border. Yes, as long as we can deal with some of the soft spots, you know, the and some of the soft spots are, you know, things that Trump seems to have a a real hate on for, you know, I think the Fentanyl crisis is not even close to the top of his list. I think it's anything to do with money, which is, where's the disproportionate trade going on with the United States and Canada, and how can they improve that? I think if we can deal with those soft spots and at the same time deal with the, you know, some of the stuff that is more humanitarian in nature, like the fentanyl stuff, then great. I'd be all for that. So that's my two cents.

Trevor Perry 32:17
Yeah, I'm all for as much economic integration, both interprovincially and with the Americans as possible. Our future is tied to the United States. No question. There's, there's, we're not, there's no third option like Pierre Trudeau talked about, you know, and I'm not, you know, a big fan of selling our natural resources to the People's Republic of China. We can do business with them, as long as they will adhere to contract and things and things rule of law, and we can do great business with them. But our future has always been, you know, tied to the United States, and we better realize that we can all be Canadians, and we can, you know, do all the things we need now I'm not so certain about do we not become a state? I think it's unlikely. But if Mr. Legault loses the election, and Fauci Quebecois comes in and there's a referendum and they win, which is quite possible, then what happens? I mean, do Alberta and Saskatchewan say enough's enough. We've got more. We have more culturally in line with with Montana and Wyoming, and think places like that. And do we? Do we end the Federation again? It goes back to my comment about the Constitution Canada is broken structurally, and it needs to, it needs to bite, bite that down on and deal with it, because it's not going to get better until we fix the rules. Interesting

Darren Coleman 33:45
food for thought for 2025 So gentlemen, I'm going to wrap it up there. We've been about half an hour together. I want to thank you for your time, and thank the listeners for joining in. I think there might be a few other topics that maybe we pick this up in the new year as we get a little more clarity on the political situation in Canada and as the US brings their new president into power. Because, Trevor, I think what you've just posited is a very interesting idea, maybe scary one, but something that I think we have to have on our radar for 2025 as investors and as taxpayers. Okay, So gentlemen, with that. Thank you very much. I wish you a happy, safe and comfortable New Year's Eve and a wonderful launch to 2025 continued success to both of you and I, look forward to continuing our conversations and our work together. So thank you very much for your time, and I wish you a great day.

Trevor Perry 34:33
Thank you very much. Cheers,

Kim Moody 34:34
Cheers!

this has been two way traffic with Darren Coleman of Portage, cross border wealth management. Thanks for watching and listening. If you have any questions or comments or ideas for new episodes, send us an email at two way podcast@gmail.com and you can find the two way traffic podcast on Facebook and Twitter. This series is a production. Of the Acme podcasting company,

Darren Coleman 35:07
on behalf of the two way traffic podcast and Portage wealth of Raymond James, thank you for listening to this conversation. This podcast has been prepared by and expressed the opinions of Darren Coleman and his guests, and are not necessarily the opinions of Raymond James, limited statistics, data and other information presented are from sources Raymond James believes to be reliable, but their accuracy cannot be guaranteed. This podcast is for information purposes only and is not construed as an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of securities. Investors, considering any investment, should consult with their investment advisor to ensure that it is suitable for the investors circumstances and risk tolerance before making any investment decision, past performance is no guarantee of future results. Information provided in this podcast is general in nature and should not be construed as providing legal accounting and or tax advice. Should viewers have any specific questions or issues in these areas, please consult your legal tax andor accounting advisor. Raymond James Limited is a member of the Canadian Investor Protection Fund. Raymond James USA Limited is a member of FINRA and SIPC. Raymond James limited and Raymond James USA limited financial advisors may only transact businesses in provinces and or states where they're registered you.

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