Love, Work and School … or Bust
The opinions expressed on two way traffic are those of Darren Coleman and are for general information purposes only. It does not constitute any legally binding engagement between the podcasters and anyone else. Always check with your advisors to obtain your own tax or investment advice. Welcome to two way traffic with Darren Coleman of Portage Cross Border Wealth Management. In this series, Darren aims to guide you through the complexities, complications, implications, and most importantly, the advantages of having money and family on both sides of the border.
Arlene Bynon:On this episode, it's love, work, and school, or bust. Darren welcomes immigration lawyer, Melissa Babel, of Babel Immigration Law. Enjoy.
Darren Coleman:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Two Way Traffic, the podcast where we talk about all things cross border Canada, United States. And today, I'm joined by my friend Melissa Babel from Babel Immigration Law, also based in Oakville, Ontario where I am, and she's a Canada US immigration attorney. Melissa, welcome to our podcast today.
Michelle Babel:Oh, thanks for having me.
Darren Coleman:Glad you're joining us. There's a lot of stuff that's going on in the press, that has a very strong Canada US immigration focus. So I thought today we'd kind of hit the the highlights of some of the things that people, if they're looking to move or have moved or just things that are causing some pressures in housing and and education. And we'll talk about it from the perspective as as an immigration attorney of what people should be mindful of if they're dealing or thinking of dealing with any of these issues. Is that fair?
Michelle Babel:Sounds good.
Darren Coleman:Perfect. Before we begin, could you maybe just give everybody kind of the highlights of what you bring to the table as, as experience in the immigration law area? Just a quick highlight of what you do and how you do it.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. For sure. So, Babble Immigration Law is a boutique immigration law firm. We focus only on immigration. And our our really our market is is the cross border client.
Michelle Babel:So the cross border company who is looking to move workers, executives, build their business on both sides of the border, the cross border family, the cross border couple. You know, you you meet someone you not from the same country as you and wanna build a life together, and and that that comes with a lot of wonderful things and also some complications. So so we really service the the back and forth. Right? The cross border where and and our goal is is to get the maximum status for people so they can come and go as they please and, you know, pretend like that border is not there, although it really is.
Michelle Babel:So the working around, getting people up status where they need it and when they need it, that's our that's our focus, our dedicated focus.
Darren Coleman:Well, one thing we've discovered in working with clients who move back and forth is it's usually vastly more complicated than they ever expected it to be. Right? And we have this this line that my friend from Newfoundland says that when it's complicated, it gets tangly. So they often get very tangled up in the rules about immigration. Right?
Darren Coleman:And and you do both countries. You know, we know some people that do immigration just in one direction, but you go with clients that are moving in either direction. Right?
Michelle Babel:That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And and that that focus has really come from a need from clients. I've been practicing Canadian immigration law for close to 20 years and, started into the US practice as well because, really, I was having conversations every single day with corporate clients, with family family based clients, and there was almost always, a pull in into a into a different country.
Michelle Babel:And so, of course, being in Canada, our largest neighbor, our neighbor to the south, you know, that's really where a lot of our clientele came from. And the the need continues. I mean, you know, when when you're looking at growth from a Canadian perspective, where do you look? Most often south of the border. Right?
Michelle Babel:Right? When you're looking to expand your North American presence, where do where the Americans look? Canada. So we try to take keep the tangles out of it as much as possible, but, but you're right. Tangly tangly is a good word for it.
Darren Coleman:So I think I'm gonna cover some of the reasons why people would move back and forth. And I think there's really kind of 3 broad areas, so maybe we'll tackle them 1 at a time. I think one is for work, another is for love, and the other might be for school. So so why don't we talk about the first one, the one you probably see the most, which is someone's moving for work. And I think one of the things we saw from the pandemic was the ability for people to work from anywhere using this capability.
Darren Coleman:So if we're an employer and we're looking to hire somebody, I think most employers thought, well, they should be able to know, be within a reasonable driving distance from the office. But now the office is wherever their laptop is. So for companies in Canada or the United States that are looking to hire, they now can really, you know, get labor from anywhere as long as there's an Internet connection. So if I'm in a Canadian employer and I found a good candidate near the United States, is it just as easy as hiring them? I put them on my payroll and or or do I need to be more mindful of things apart from just what currency I paid them in?
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Well, probably everybody wants to be paid in US dollars, but that's that's a different discussion. Yeah. I mean I mean, the short answer is it's Tangli. Yeah.
Michelle Babel:If you're a Canadian employer and you wanna find your source wonderful talent and you want that talent as part of your team, Big question from immigration perspective is where will a person be doing the work physically? Right? So, yes, I could take my laptop and go spend the weekend at at the hotel, or I can take my laptop and go to the beach, or that would represent a small percentage of time that you'd be spending. But the you know, where the person is most of the time is really important. Right?
Michelle Babel:So is it practical from an employment perspective to have, an employee that you really need in the office, have that person be remote? Possibly. You know, is it is it possible to have that person be your 100% dedicated employee, but not be in the same country? You've, range into the world of employment law complications there. But, yeah, I mean, can can work be done successfully and productively without the person being in the same building?
Michelle Babel:Absolutely. So, you know, the, the freeing up of the ability to work hasn't necessarily taken away the the confines of immigration, which is always related to geography. And I would say also, you know, probably for discussion for another day, hasn't taken away the confines of employment law, which, you know, you know, in Canada is provincial, and in the US would be would be far more complicated still. So, yeah, I would say that there's an opening and, like, an a greater ability to hire from around the world, from a variety of sources, get the best talent, how that aligns and overlaps with employment and immigration law really does it really is impacted by where the person is. So possible, but complicated.
Darren Coleman:Right. So if I'm based in Oakville and I founded a great candidate, but they live in Texas, it that employee, I'm gonna have to deal with Ontario labor law, Texas labor law, Ontario rules, US rule. Like, I've now got a lot more things on my plate I need to attend to to do it in a way that's correct. Is that right?
Michelle Babel:Yeah. And I mean, I would say the default, you know, there is if if the person that you wanna hire in Texas is really someone that's critical to the organization and you want them to be a full time employee, that person's most likely gonna need to relocate. So this that that's the disconnect there. So despite the ability to do the work, right, the actual physical ability to take the laptop and do the work, you let you know, anything intellectually based, you can do it from Texas. But the reality is there's probably gonna need to be some connection to Ontario, you know, or Oakville in this case.
Michelle Babel:Right? From an employment law perspective, you wanna know where you know, which law is responsible for this person, which law governs our relationship. From a tax and payroll perspective, you know, having an employee that's not on Canadian payroll, that that can complicate matters as well. And then from an immigration perspective, if you if you want the person to be able to work in your location in Oakville, they absolutely have to have authorization to do that, and that that's the work permit. Right?
Michelle Babel:So that's the, can I work physically in Canada? Yes. As long as you're authorized to do so. Right? So that's the work permit part of it.
Darren Coleman:So I was gonna say, so let's touch a little bit on that. So if they did, there's a lot of ways people can go back and forth. And let me just reverse it now. So I'm a Canadian. I have an opportunity to work in the United States.
Darren Coleman:You know, again, COVID, same thing. Everybody can work anywhere. I've now got an opportunity to work in New York or Texas or California. Is it a matter of doing like, when you say a work permit or a visa, what are some of the things that a person would have to then explore? Is it an easy process, or is it really difficult, or does it depend?
Michelle Babel:Yeah. You're you're asking for the lawyer answer, which is it depends. You know, immigration is like a big complex game of match. Right? Like, you know, when you're when you're a kid, you match the side of the coin with that, you know, pictures line up.
Michelle Babel:Immigration is just like that. It's a matching game. So, you know, you need to match the person, their experience, education sometimes, with the employer and with the job. Right? So if I am an engineer with an engineering degree and the employer is an engineering company and the job is for an engineer, that's a nice, easy, linear match.
Michelle Babel:If I'm something more complex than that or if there's there's some disconnect, then sometimes you need to to find how you can explain where you can match to the immigration category because that's the other part of it. The person, the job, the employer, and then the immigration category. So in my engineer example, there's a perfectly easy, nice, accessible work permit category for Canada and the US called the TN engineer, TN professional, or in Canada, we call it the NAFTA professional. And that's great. It lines up so perfectly in my, you know, in my in my line of cards, if you will.
Michelle Babel:But when you know, and and NAFTA provides a a KUSPA now. I I old enough. I keep I will always call it NAFTA. But, you know, it provides a lot of really great opportunities when you match nicely with the category. The challenge comes in mute when there's not a an immediate match or when we don't have a facilitated work permit option.
Michelle Babel:So, yeah, we go for the path of least resistance. Right? Where's the easiest match? Where where do the pieces align most comfortably, and try to use those categories. But, yeah, the truth is there's a wide variety of categories.
Michelle Babel:In the US, I call it alphabet soup, right, for for all the different categories. In Canada, we call them by more complicated names sometimes, unnecessarily so. But, yeah, you gotta find the right match. And I think that's a critical thing. It's the person and the employers, the employee and the employer.
Michelle Babel:That's half the story. But then you the other half of the story, the other part of the match is the employment or the sorry. The immigration category.
Darren Coleman:Got it. And this is where your your expertise and experience of how to kind of know which category to fit and how to massage it is really a huge advantage to somebody. I don't think most people should play the home game for this and go on Google and try to figure it out themselves. Right?
Michelle Babel:Like dominoes. Right? You line up the numbers or whatever. You know? The match game.
Michelle Babel:When you were if you played match well when you're in kindergarten, you you're great as an immigration lawyer.
Darren Coleman:Okay. You've gotten off to a good start. So, okay, so we've got the situation with someone who knows they wanna take employment and they've gotta go through the process of doing it correctly. But then let's talk about marrying for love. So you're gonna move across the border and and marry somebody, or your partner's done all that immigration work correctly.
Darren Coleman:He's taking that other opportunity. You're relocating. Does the spouse or the loved one, the partner, do they automatically get, like, just to follow through? So, you know, if your spouse is taking that job, you're gonna go. And because you're married or you're common law, whatever, you can automatically get a work permit and you can also work?
Darren Coleman:Or does everybody have to go one at a time? How does how does that work when you're when you're together?
Michelle Babel:Okay. Well, let's take an example of of 2 Canadians going into the US. Right? So a married couple, going into the US. So the the TN, though, this nice facilitated immigration category, it's great.
Michelle Babel:It's easy to get. It's, you know, it's readily available. We can do it at the border. Easy peasy. But, unfortunately, the spouse of a TN holder can't work.
Michelle Babel:So they can accompany, but they don't get so the TD status. Right? So it's it's it's push and pull. Facilitative for the primary person and less facilitative for the spouse. They can go to the US.
Michelle Babel:They can accompany the spouse. You know, they could be there. They could stay there, but it doesn't come with work authorization.
Darren Coleman:Got it. And when we say no work, it's not they're like, they can't even work at McDonald's or Home Depot. They can't do anything.
Michelle Babel:Right? A company only. Yeah. Yeah. No work.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. So so it the facilitation is is helpful, but doesn't get you all the way there. If whereas if you're looking at something like an intercompany transfer, so I'm I'm 2 Canadians, a couple going into the US, the spouse of someone's gonna get an l one or an intercompany transfer work permit can get a work permit. The spouse can work.
Darren Coleman:Uh-huh. Okay.
Michelle Babel:Why is that? That's the, you know, in in the in the head of the policy makers in the United States. So I I couldn't say why. But but for example, we're even though we have a nice easy, like, low hanging fruit in the TN, it may not be the proper or the fulsome solution for everybody. Right?
Michelle Babel:If you're you've got a spouse that's coming with you and children are coming with you and you want everybody to be able to be settled and work and do what they need to do, sometimes we we do opt for a somewhat more complex, relatively more complex option because it fits the needs of the whole family. So that's your that's your love and work, you know, mixed in together.
Darren Coleman:Right. Right. I think that's important because we do we have seen people that they'll take, you know, one spouse has an employment opportunity and they need to be mindful of, well, what about everybody going together? You know, if you have a a high school age child, well, they won't be able to work, and have that kind of part time job experiencing that a lot of high school students would have. They're precluded from that.
Darren Coleman:Right? So so love, always complicated. What about people going to school? And I'm gonna maybe zero in on stuff that's been in the press a lot recently in Canada about this surge of in our population and a lot of it coming from, a lot of colleges and other post secondary institutions, you know, really amping up the number of international students they're having. And so now we're seeing that kind of cascade into some issues around our housing market and other changes that have happened because the volume has gone up a lot.
Darren Coleman:So if someone wants to go and work or sorry, go to school in the US or Canada, is it really just as easy as I got accepted into that institution and away I go?
Michelle Babel:Is that what you're saying? That's the starting point. Yeah. That's the starting point. But you always need to authorize.
Michelle Babel:So if you're foreign nationally, you always need authorization. Right? So into the US. And again, you know, our practice is cross border, so we mostly do Americans coming to Canada, Canadians going to the US. So a Canadian who wants to go study in the US, they're gonna get approval from their school, which has to be on the list of schools that can approve a study permit or an I twenty.
Michelle Babel:And they're gonna take their approval and a and a nice package would go to the border, and they'll be decided right then and there. Anybody other than a Canadian, though, is gonna go to a visa office. Right? They're constantly they're constantly in their office. And, you know, sort of at the whims of availability of appointments and and all the rest of it.
Michelle Babel:So it is much more facilitated for Canadians entering the US versus any other national just because of that visa free, you know, applications at the land border. So so so a lot of Canadians do go to school in the US for that reason.
Darren Coleman:And I guess in there's kind of a similar reverse process for an American wanting to go to school in Canada. Right? They've also got to apply for a a similar student visa and get permission to come here. Right?
Michelle Babel:Definitely. So so it starts with the school. Again, it's that matching game. Right? So the person with the program, with the school, you know, do they meet all the requirements?
Michelle Babel:Do they have funds to support themselves? All the all of those types of things. And so, yes, similar similarly, US citizens can apply to border, for their study permits, and they are the only nationals coming into Canada that can't. So everybody else needs to apply for study permits, before they enter Canada. Right?
Michelle Babel:So people who otherwise can make applications at the border, British national, German national, French national, whether you're talking about study permits, they have to apply before before they travel. So before entry. So a little bit more restrictive, but then the, yeah, the US Canada connection is very, very close and on the education side.
Darren Coleman:Now just while we're on the topic of this, and it was in the press today, and it's been a a a kind of an interesting thing that's been building in terms of people awareness of just on the on the student, the number of foreign students coming to Canada and how it's just surged so much. Is there and I'll maybe get you to speculate on this a bit. Is there a concern that because that's now becoming problematic in terms of how it's affecting housing and things, that they may that the government may change the rules and make it more restrictive? Is that something that your community of international immigration attorneys is worried about? Or or or there are other policy changes that might be coming in immigration that maybe it's easier today, it might get harder later?
Michelle Babel:Yeah. I I think that the student and housing conversation really requires a little bit more nuance. You know? I mean, housing is a demographic issue. Right?
Michelle Babel:Like, more people, more houses. So, you know, and then in Canada, our demographic growth largely comes from immigrants, which is a very good thing driving our economy. Growing our economy. I mean, you need people to work to support those who can't and and all the rest of it. Right?
Michelle Babel:So growing demography is good. Is there some imbalance in the system? I I think yes. And that probably comes really from the fact that our our immigration systems are meaning, like, who could become a permanent resident. That is that's very heavily regulated.
Michelle Babel:Right? I mean, the government has to put a proposal to parliament. They do it for 3 years. They, you know, plan it out 3 years in a row that's the levels plan. Used to be 1 year at a time, but then someone said, hey.
Michelle Babel:This is not long enough. Let's plan for 3 years. So the government tables the levels plan and says, okay. We want this many immigrants, this many economic immigrants, this many family immigrants. But there's no equal plan for the, the temporary residents, the students and workers.
Michelle Babel:Right? So the idea of being Product. You wouldn't wanna limit the number of workers because you never know what employers Canadian employers are gonna need. Right? So if Well,
Darren Coleman:you might need
Michelle Babel:Canadian employers. Right. Yeah. You never know. Right?
Michelle Babel:What then and you don't wanna restrict access to skilled talent because that restricts access to all of the things that we need to grow the economy on a whole. Right? So that's been that's been the approach is don't limit the foreign workers, don't limit and equally don't limit the foreign students because if the schools have the place and the students want to study then, you know, again, that the concept of match, right? There's a match there and, you know, why why should the government regulate it or restrict it? And and I do think that we're coming to a point in the discourse and whether we're at the full, like, end of thinking about this, I don't know.
Michelle Babel:But we're at a point where I think there's been, for the first time in a long time, discussions on on caps and numbers and and limits and counting, you know, the temporary foreign workers and students. So that's not to say easy or harder, but the the just a simple idea of there being some some maximum level, some ceiling, which is not necessarily something that I would say has been has been part of the discourse in recent years.
Darren Coleman:Yeah. And I I on the student one, I know there was an article that I read not long ago where it showed how just a few colleges in Ontario, for example, have had, like, their enrollment of international students went from like a few 1000 to 40, 50,000. Like it just exploded. The number just shot up like crazy. And I think that's where you talk about being in balance.
Darren Coleman:It looks like some of these things, maybe they're not anymore. So maybe some changes coming to try and get it back to balance, but we'll let the politicians figure that out.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Exactly. And and there's there's a real difference between, you know, universities, let's say, or publicly funded institutions, and private colleges. Right? There's a really big difference.
Michelle Babel:And the government authorized many, many, many, many, many private colleges to become designated learning institutions, and then they can they can support study permits. And, you know
Darren Coleman:And the fear is that some of these are becoming called diploma mills or something like that. Right?
Michelle Babel:I mean, that that's a that's a great sound bite. You know, I I heard that too. But, you know, I guess my my comment would be, like, read the notes from the guy before. Like, you know, these all these institutions were authorized by the government at some point. So are they pulling back on who's who could be a designated learning institution?
Michelle Babel:Are they gonna change? You know, there's there's indications that they're gonna make who could become an institution for the purpose of of supporting a study permit, make that criteria more risk more restrictive, which, honestly, I think is a good thing because not it's not just the, you know, who's coming to Canada, but from the it from the foreign nationals perspective, you know, the coming to Canada get a good education to be able to get skills Yeah.
Darren Coleman:They want value for their money. Right?
Michelle Babel:Right. You don't want a diploma that no one's gonna care about. Right? You want a diploma that's gonna help you to contribute, to get a good job, to grow your skills, you know, and some stay and some go home. But, yeah, it has I I'm telling you, it's all about matching.
Michelle Babel:Right? Like, in a play match. And if the skills match the person and the skills are needed in the economy, it's a good thing. If we're overdiploaming, if we're overgraduating, if we're over admitting, and people are not actually able to turn that yeah. It's no good for anybody.
Michelle Babel:It's not good for the schools. It's not good for the demography. It's not good for the economy. It's not good for the foreign nationals that are probably putting significant amount significant amounts of money into this venture to send kids to Canada.
Darren Coleman:Right. Well, I know it's hitting the radar, for the for most people out there now that it may not have been a few years ago. So so we'll leave it with that because, again, we don't know what can happen, but clearly it's on people's it's getting attention. Something else that's getting attention, and I know we don't wanna get into the politics of, you know, any US elections. But what's interesting to me is that the last time we watched this show, where the US had this last, you know, Trump Biden thing, which maybe we get again.
Darren Coleman:I have no idea. But one of the things that was interesting was, the volume and, again, it doesn't matter which side you want to win or or favor or don't favor, but there was this really rapid increase of moving to Canada being a Google search term that was number 1. We saw a lot of people concerned about the last election in the United States. Again, which direct who was gonna win didn't matter. But a lot of people said, if I if the person I got don't like gets in, maybe I'll see as Canada's my safe haven country.
Darren Coleman:I'll go to Canada. And we may see that happen again if we get a repeat of the last election. So for people that are thinking it's just as easy for me to move, we also saw, you know, people say maybe go to the states now. So if people get the political climate they like or don't like, whatever way it is, is it if people say, I just wanna move. I wanna work in the states where I wanna move from the states to Canada.
Darren Coleman:Is because our border is fairly easy to cross, and our phones all work in the same country, and we have the same TV shows. But is it really as easy as the average person thinks? Because we talked about getting the immigration fees and other things. But can't they just come and visit and then decide, I wanna get a job here and then go through this process? Can they just move their family and say I'm gonna come as a visitor?
Darren Coleman:Because I can stay in either country for 6 months. Maybe I just move, and then I'll figure it out. Can I do that?
Michelle Babel:So I mean, the answer to technically is yes. Although, I would say it's not a great plan. Pick up your family and move to a different country without the ability to work, without access to health coverage, without the right of children to go to school. I mean, it's not I mean, I'm a planner. Right?
Michelle Babel:So that sounds like a terrible plan to me. But the on the very technical answer to that is it used to be the answer was no because prior to COVID and again, this is great. Like, read the notes from the last guy comment comes from. Prior to COVID, you know, it was not possible for a visitor to apply for a work permit from within Canada. That was always our our way.
Michelle Babel:Right? Not possible. And during COVID, that was one of the restrictions that was lifted. So making it possible for someone who's physically in Canada as a visitor to apply for a work permit. So that's a that's a COVID era era, like, relaxation of a long standing
Darren Coleman:And it hasn't and it hasn't gotten reverted back. It's stayed No.
Michelle Babel:That you can Yeah. Right? It stayed. Interesting. Yeah.
Michelle Babel:Now whether that stays forever, I don't know because it's public policy and not, like, in the regulations. But but that was one of the many, many facilitations that the immigration prior immigration minister introduced during COVID to say, okay. We need workers. Get them in any way you can. Right?
Michelle Babel:So that that restriction was loosened. Should a family pick up and move to to a country without, you know, without preplanning? I I would say, oh, that gives me a hard time.
Darren Coleman:Not a good idea.
Michelle Babel:Praises my blood pressure. But but the technical answer
Darren Coleman:And your fees will go up to talk to them.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Blood pressure goes up, fees goes up. Fees go up for sure. And I mean, there's the other part of, like, you know, what do you say at the border? Right?
Michelle Babel:Okay. Yeah. Sure. The border's friendly. But let me tell you, can get unfriendly pretty quick.
Michelle Babel:You know? If you say, oh, I'm moving to the US. It's a beautiful country. I wanna live here forever. You know, that CBP officer may say, I'm sorry, my friend.
Michelle Babel:You are not moving here.
Darren Coleman:Turn around.
Michelle Babel:Go back to where you came from. Yeah. Absolutely. There's no right to enter for a visitor. So that would be a bad plan in my books.
Michelle Babel:Far better to have a plan for a temporary residence. Right? So who's gonna work? Who's gonna go to school? Who's gonna pay the bills?
Michelle Babel:And and then the transition to permanent residence.
Darren Coleman:Decision, but we're seeing and and one of the the the accounting firms in in Canada did a a a webinar that I saw pop up on my LinkedIn, which was all about this idea of renouncing US citizenship. So this is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. And it's something we don't really see Canadians renouncing citizenship, but we see sometimes Americans wanna renounce citizenship. So could you maybe just describe a little bit as to why it's it's kind of a one way direction? We because, again, we don't see Canadians often doing it, but Americans sometimes do.
Darren Coleman:Why would they? Yeah.
Michelle Babel:Well, I mean, I would say that's largely because of the different way that, the tax systems work. If you are a Canadian citizen and and do have a secondary citizenship, you wouldn't necessarily be thinking about your taxes all the time. Right? But if you're a US citizen and have a secondary citizenship, you may not live in the US, may not work in the US, but you you have an ongoing lifetime obligation to report your worldwide income. And you know, why that that keeps the accountants and the tax guys and the financial advisers busy.
Michelle Babel:It's all good, but not everybody wants it. Right? So I my I mean, as an Yeah.
Darren Coleman:So just just sorry. Just to highlight that so everybody's really clear. And I think that's the the really core difference is that Canadians are taxed on where they live. Like most countries, where you live determines your tax liability. So it's possible to be a Canadian citizen, move to another country, and you stop paying Canadian taxes if you do it properly.
Darren Coleman:But Americans don't have that. Right? They're somewhat unique. It's them in Estonia, I believe, where they're taxed no matter where they live. So their citizenship decides their taxation.
Darren Coleman:And then they may have other tax obligations depending on where they choose to live. But it's the only way they can stop paying or being responsible for filing US taxes is to no longer be a citizen of the United States. So is that is that a reasonable summary of that?
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And why that is again, I don't know.
Michelle Babel:But, but yeah. And I would say that, you know, people who have economic interest in the US, you know, would would feel differently maybe than someone who was born there and never lived there, and who have, you know, who live maybe lives in Canada. They happen to be born when their parents were in the US working and then never lived there and have no ties. And yeah. So it can it can feel like a burden to some extent.
Michelle Babel:I mean, I'm allergic to anybody giving up or removing their status. You know? Like, I always want the maximum status for people. So the thought of giving it up you know, we caught we actually counsel people pretty heavily. Like, only do this if you really, really are ready for, you know, separation.
Michelle Babel:You really wanna divorce the US, then, you know, then then do it. But but maybe don't do it, you know, if you have property or you have family or your your children are going to university there. You know, I've had conversations with people where they say, well, I wanna renounce, but I'm gonna keep my job in the US. And I think, oh, how are you gonna do that?
Darren Coleman:That's gonna be fun.
Michelle Babel:Complicated. That that that's so, you know, giving up status, it's like it's my I'm allergic to it. It's my kryptonite. I don't I I would try to encourage people to retain their status, but people who genuinely have no connection to the US, no economic ties, no family ties, just have it have citizenship almost by happenstance, not by, you know, acquiring it on their own. There's a there is a pretty big pull, you know, a big pull reason to to to give it up.
Michelle Babel:You know, they don't need it. So but but I just do a song and dance about, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? You know?
Michelle Babel:Before you give it up.
Darren Coleman:And that's where we've encountered it with clients where the we call them the accidental American. They're like, you know, I was born in the US, but we moved when I was a year old. I I don't perceive myself as American. I don't, you know, and I don't want all the tax complex flexity because my life is in Canada. It isn't in the US.
Darren Coleman:So I don't want all these burdens. So how do I get out of this? Yeah. And that and it is a pretty complicated process. We've also seen it where people have worked in the United States for a long time and they're moving home to Canada to retire and like, I wanna be done with, you know, the tax man in the United States.
Darren Coleman:So how do I get uncle Sam off my back? But it is a really important, conversation to have with a professional because it isn't as simple as just handing your passport to the dude at the border or handing back your green card, for example. It's it's much more involved. Right? And could be expensive.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Absolutely. Different levels of complexity if you're a citizen versus a green card holder. Because green card holders also have a timeline where, you know, if you keep the status for a certain amount of time, then then the tax consequences change. So, yeah, I think I think it is it's complex.
Michelle Babel:I mean, to the the the other thing I was gonna say is the folks who were the, you know, the accidental American is a great term. They often are also not able to pass on US citizenship to their children, because they don't have the residency for citizenship by descent, which we deal with all the time, but that, you know, you have to have spent time in the US, after the age of 14. So So if you were born in the US and never lived there, you can't pass on citizenship in in most cases. Right? And so that that even lessens the tie.
Michelle Babel:Like, you know, it it it severs really that the tie that people feel for the US sometimes. And then those I find that those are the folks that that often wanna renounce because, you know, it's it's different if you're going to have your children or the next generation live in the US or move to the US or wanna be, you know, when you have those ties, renouncing could be very unpalatable. Right? Like and I tell people, like, today, you have a right to enter. Buddy, tomorrow, you do not.
Michelle Babel:You know, you're like the rest of us having to request entry and and it's not guaranteed. So careful what you give up. Right?
Darren Coleman:Well, actually, and this is a good segue because one of the other things I was gonna ask you, and this is about when people have citizenship and they wanna cascade it to their children and they've moved out of that country. And, you know, we so let's say someone has, you know, they spent the first 20 years of their life in the United States, They've moved to Canada. They now have a family here. Their children are born in Canada. Do they have an automatic right, their kids, to US citizenship?
Darren Coleman:And same with the reverse. Like, my younger brother lives in Massachusetts.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely an action required. So, yeah, the answer to the question about the US, I mean, the US, passing a lot of citizenship by descent, it's actually complicated. There's this big chart that we all look at, all the immigration lawyers look at.
Michelle Babel:The US takes into consideration timing of the birth, timing of the departure from the US, whether your parents were married, whether it's your father or your mother who is US citizen. So lots of lots
Darren Coleman:of So sexist. Yeah. We have to change.
Michelle Babel:Don't get me started, Darren.
Darren Coleman:Don't get me started. Because what if the man has the baby? Come on. We have to figure out We
Michelle Babel:have different rules. And if the and heaven forbid, the mother wasn't married. I mean, you know, whatever. So anyway, that's a different conversation altogether. So in Canada, we're a little bit more, egalitarian about it, I would say.
Michelle Babel:What is the law today? And actually, this is very topical because the law is about this looks like it's about to change. The law today is you can only pass on Canadian citizenship to the 1st generation born outside of Canada. So I'm born in Canada and my child is born outside of Canada. My child can request a Canadian citizenship certificate because they're the 1st generation born outside of Canada.
Michelle Babel:My child's child who then in turn is born to my my future grandchildren. Yeah. I don't have them yet, but, yeah, my future grandchildren born out also born outside of Canada. They're the 2nd generation born outside of Canada. Right?
Michelle Babel:So the ties are are loosened. The 2nd generation born outside of Canada as of today and since 2009 are not able to claim citizenship by descent. But there was just a federal court case saying that that rule violates section 15 of the charter, and they've, like, despite the people for Christmas. So this is about to change. Yeah.
Michelle Babel:So the the decision from the federal court was stayed for, I think it's I think it's 6 months to get give parliament, a minute to go back and rethink this. And so we'll see what happens. And we probably have to take this up and and make some decisions about it. But, but I've seen many, many sad cases where, you know, people haven't been in Canada, wanna return to Canada, and then that second generation is not able to claim the citizenship. And so if you I mean, it's not that it's impossible to ultimately get here, but the the ties again are lost and, get re reacquiring it or reacquiring status, permanent resident status first, it can take years.
Michelle Babel:So there there definitely is some hardship associated with, you know, that second generation born outside Canada. You know, the grandchildren of Canadian citizens not being able to claim citizenship.
Darren Coleman:But if I heard you correctly, it sounds like what might happen then is that it could become like, everybody can then get it. Like, every generation afterwards would have the same entitlement potentially.
Michelle Babel:Well, that's how it used to be. So that that is how it used to be. And then and in in the Harper years, since Chewbacca was changed to to reduce it to that 1st generation outside of Canada. So I I think that the idea here is that, you know, forever and ever, amen, with no residency requirements and no connection to Canada, that's probably too broad because also it sort of waters down the the value of connection to Canada and, you know, you know, Right.
Darren Coleman:I was gonna ask you, what what seems to be common around the world? Does it seem to be in most countries that it kind of goes, like, 1 generation and then that's it? Or is it more normative that it's just whatever the lineage is? I have no idea which way that Yeah. Has to be.
Michelle Babel:It would it would really depend country to country. I mean, in the US, like I said, it's you have to have residents. If the actual person has to have been resident and and it's only that one generation. So the US
Darren Coleman:probably got the tightest rules.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. Pretty tight. Yeah. Canada would be, I would say, in in the sort of the second range. But I mean, you know, many European countries have no residency requirements as long as you pass it down generation after generation.
Michelle Babel:My own family has done that. The 2nd generation Yeah. Not born in in the European country, and, you know, passports arrive.
Darren Coleman:And and and you're right. Some of them will do it to the grandchildren. Others are like, no. Just the 1st generation, and that's it. So it is specific.
Darren Coleman:But I think this is important that if people have these family connections, it would make sense to maybe just wait. Maybe you have an entitlement. Yep. If that would maybe give you some ability to move or live or work or whatever for your kids or or
Michelle Babel:Absolutely.
Darren Coleman:Grandkids' potential.
Michelle Babel:And that was something that happened during COVID. I mean, I I got so many call I kept saying the Canadians are coming out of the woodwork. So all these people said, my mother's a Canadian. I wanna apply for Canadian citizenship because now I wanna be able to, you know, to travel and and live and work in in Canada. So we did a lot during COVID.
Michelle Babel:We did a lot of proof of citizenship applications, mostly for Americans
Darren Coleman:Okay.
Michelle Babel:Who never thought it was necessary, didn't think it was important. And then they go and pull mom's passport out of the banker's box and say, can we get citizenship? And and and generally, we can. And I think once this, the so the direction from the federal court back to parliament to say, okay. Fix this.
Michelle Babel:It's too it's too restrictive. Now parliament's gotta figure it out and strike a better balance or strike the find the right balance, let's say. And there's gonna be potentially a whole generation of people who otherwise were excluded who now can be recognized as Canadian citizens. I think that's a great thing. Again, like, more status is better.
Michelle Babel:Right? That's the world I live in.
Darren Coleman:So that's so there you go. So a lot of our Americans watching, if you know a Canadian and you're married, then maybe you can be in this too. So we'll give you a jersey,
Michelle Babel:show you
Darren Coleman:how to if you make sure enough to shoot left or shoot right, and up you come in a toque, you're gonna need that. Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned I watched a YouTube video on a guy who was in, in the UK. He had a video, and he talked about he go he was talking about hats, and he talked about wearing a toque. That's what they call him.
Darren Coleman:Uh-huh. I said him, but I'm like, that's completely wrong. That is 100% not the same thing. Fail. Yeah.
Darren Coleman:So he actually replied back. He's like, thanks. I I looked it up on Google, and I thought that was the pronunciation. Like, that is 100% not correct.
Michelle Babel:Yeah. And I'm not sure that's a question on this is Japhev. Yeah. It should be, though.
Darren Coleman:It probably should be. And we have a few I think there's a few that we should add, like, who's on cherry and a few other things that would really who's mister dress up? That kind of stuff. Right?
Michelle Babel:They should be fair. You can't say who's the best hockey team because that's a disaster.
Darren Coleman:Oh, no. That's gonna be an argument.
Michelle Babel:That's an argument. Yeah. Wanna have a fight? You wanna pick a fight? That's how to do it.
Darren Coleman:And then well, I've also had to remind many Canadians or many Americans because they say Canadians are very friendly. I said we are. Just don't touch our goalie.
Michelle Babel:Yep. And if you're from the East Coast of Canada, watch out who your favorite teams are. You gotta be careful what jerseys you wear in the street. If the Australians are friendly, right, wear the wrong
Darren Coleman:jersey. Canadians are tough like that. We're very we're very specific. Well, Melissa, thank you very much. That was a very good, overview of how tangly a lot of this stuff can be.
Darren Coleman:And if and if people are thinking of moving or thinking about citizenship, we would really encourage them to reach out and talk with you because, as I said earlier, you do not play the home game with this. You do need professional guidance because it's way more complicated than people think.
Michelle Babel:Never a dull moment.
Darren Coleman:Never a dull moment. So, Melissa, thank you very much. Stay warm because it's still winter deciding to show up. So so stay warm. Keep your, your your, slippers on, and, and we'll talk to you again soon.
Michelle Babel:Thanks for having me.
Darren Coleman:And for those of you watching, thank you for staying tuned. And again, if you have any cross border complexity, we've got got a pretty good network of people who can help. So thank you for watching. We'll talk to you again soon.
Arlene Bynon:This has been two way traffic with Darren Coleman of Portage Cross Border Wealth Management. Thanks for watching and listening. If you have any questions or comments or ideas for new episodes, send us an email at two way podcast atgmail.com, and you can find the two way traffic podcast on Facebook and Twitter. This is a production of the Acme podcasting company.
Darren Coleman:On behalf of the Two Way Traffic Podcast and Portage Wealth of Raymond James, thank you for listening to this conversation. This podcast has been prepared by and expressed the opinions of Darren Coleman and his guests and are not necessarily the opinions of Raymond James Limited. Statistics, data, and other information presented are from sources Raymond James believes to be reliable, but their accuracy cannot be guaranteed. This podcast is for information purposes only and is not construed as an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of securities. Investors considering any investment should consult with their investment adviser to ensure that it is suitable for the investor's circumstances and risk tolerance before making any investment decision.
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